This transcript is auto generated
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welcome I'm your host Hilary Bricken and
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this is the Cannabis law Now podcast
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where we regularly discuss issues
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related to the Cannabis industry
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including investment day-to-day
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operational issues and potential reform
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on the horizon that will impact all
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cannabis businesses and investors in the
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United
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States welcome everybody to today's
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podcast it's going to be an exciting one
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because at this point in time and today
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is May 17th as we're recording we
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finally have in our midst the notice of
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proposed rulemaking from The Drug
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Enforcement Administration to make the
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historic shift from cannabis for
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cannabis on the Controlled Substances
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Act from schedule 1 to schedule three
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and to discuss that move which is
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admittedly epic I have today John Hudak
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who is a longtime friend and colleague
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of mine he wears many hats and as of
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today he is the director of the main
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office of cannabis policy that's number
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one but he is also a former Brookings
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fellow and that is really why I have him
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on today certainly we can discuss what
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you're doing in Maine John but I brought
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you on because you were one of the first
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people in 2016 to deeply analyze what a
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reschedule would look like off of a one
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and I think you even maybe referenced a
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schedule two or three in the piece that
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you put together and I also wanted your
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voice to be Amplified and that you get
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the attention that you deserve on this
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topic because you are truly I think one
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of the few objective voices in the room
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on the topic because you don't have
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clients in the game that are pushing for
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a certain agenda you're not in bed with
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the pharmaceutical industry and you're a
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Regulators so you have a grip on policy
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and kind of these real world
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implications of these major shifts in
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law so welcome to the podcast John
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thanks for having me Hillary and why
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don't you give us a little bit of your
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background I know I just kind of pared a
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little bit of it but let's hear it
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straight from you so the people know
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you're legit yeah so like you said I
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spent over a decade as a senior fellow
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at the Brookings institution where I
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worked on a variety of research areas
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including immigration policy campaigns
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and elections federal spending policy
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and then over time uh cannabis became a
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really big part of my portfolio both out
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of intellectual curiosity but also you
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know if we rewind 10 years 11 years
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there just weren't a lot of think tanks
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talking about cannabis you had the
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Heritage Foundation which was Pearl
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clutching what about the children the
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very Nancy Grace approach to drug policy
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uh and then you had the uh the KO
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Institute which was talking about it
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from a really libertarian economic
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perspective but there weren't a lot of
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think tanks diving into the the real
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nuts and bolts of cannabis policy and so
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you know it's it's easy to be Amplified
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when you're the only voice in the room
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and I um really enjoyed for a bit being
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the only voice in the room from a perch
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at a place like Brookings and then about
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a year and a half ago I hung up my uh
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Think Tank cleats and uh took over at
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Main's office of cannabis policy uh
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where I still am today I I serve as the
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chief regulator and chief enforcement
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officer for the state's medical and
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adult use cannabis programs well I'm
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very happy for Maine I think they're
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incredibly lucky to have you and what I
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like about you most as a political
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scientist is that while you embrace the
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policy you don't get lost in it you've
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always had a very real world perspective
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regarding application and kind of real
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world implications for these moves with
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drugs in particular for cannabis and
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let's just dive right into it this
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notice of prop proposed Ru making is
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fresh I don't even think it's 24 hours
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old as we record this it's 92 Pages some
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of the irony is that the actual proposed
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rule itself only takes up about two
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paragraphs on pages 91 and 92 and the
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remainder of the content really is the
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background and the support for why the
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rule is being brought to bear and I want
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to dive into number one what do you
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think are the top let say three to five
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highlights of the notice of proposed
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rulemaking by the DEA and I'm not going
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to launch into the context of how this
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all came to fruition obviously this is
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highly political we're in a presidential
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election year but when you read the
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notice of proposed rule making what
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really stuck out to you yeah so you're
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right like there's a lot of there's a
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very little bit of the actual sort of
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rule and then there's the justification
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and I think for a lot of your listeners
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their lawyers who are probably pretty
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familiar with regulatory law but I think
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for a lot of your listeners they're
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either lawyers who practice in other
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areas of law or they are not lawyers and
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so the federal rul making process is
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probably pretty foreign to them and this
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might be their first foray into just how
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damn boring it is and the sort of long
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justifications for rule changes are are
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pretty common but I think in this space
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it was a pretty fascinating Deep dive uh
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from the Office of the Attorney General
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from HHS clearly reflecting I would say
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a combination and this is like my
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Topline takeaway is like a combination
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of Science and an understanding of where
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Society is at and so if you strip
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everything away and I'm not saying this
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is my position there would have been
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plenty of justification within HHS and
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FDA specifically to keep Canabis at
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schedule one they did it8 years ago they
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kept it at schedule one let's be honest
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not a lot has changed in our
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understanding of cannabis in 8 years but
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what has changed is the social approach
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um a society's approach to cannabis and
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so I think HHS felt a combination of
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that type of pressure plus the fact that
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the president of the United States
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initiated the rescheduling petition and
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he is their boss at the end of the day
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and so you you have this moment where
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typically does not happen in FDA that is
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outside societal pressure really ended
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up having an impact here and part of the
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reason why I think it's important to
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note that there was this sort of outside
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pressure some of it political excuse me
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some of it societal is a reflection of
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how much we previously misunderstood
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cannabis you know putting it in schedule
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one made it this sort of this demon
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status that it was so bad if it was
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still believed to be so bad HHS would
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not have acted in the way that it did in
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this case in that it it gave into some
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of the political and societal pressure
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but understanding that a lot of states
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have legalized for adult use you know
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Most states have legalized for medical
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use and the sky hasn't and that's an
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important context here the second
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takeaway for me is how much DEA was
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brought dragging kicking dragged kicking
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and screaming to this outcome I think
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for DEA they understood the writing on
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the wall they understood that their boss
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the president of the United States
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wanted this to happen and they very
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vocally and passionately registered
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their objections in this analysis and I
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think some people are going to read the
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uh notice of proposed rulemaking and
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have the approach of like screw the DEA
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like what the hell are they doing but in
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reality like that's good government to
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me you know I would rather know that
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there is dissent I would rather know
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that there is conflicting opinions
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within the administration and despite
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those this is the outcome we got to like
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I can disagree with some of the things
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that DEA noted as objections I'll also
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note that I think some of their
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objections are valid ultimately I think
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we got to the right conclusion the
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administration got to the right
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conclusion we're in an environment where
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our politics is so is so prone to
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conspiracy theories and lack of trust
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and I think having a document like this
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which airs it all out is how government
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should work it's how I like my agency to
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work and Maine and I think it helps
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build that trust to say listen this
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wasn't a bunch of Yes Men behind the
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curtain just saying yes Mr Biden yes Mr
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Biden yes Mr Biden there was this
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conversation internally that ultimately
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Spilled Out into the public and whether
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you agree with HHS whether you agree
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with DEA whether you think cannabis
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should be descheduled this is the type
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of government behavior that we should
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all Embrace that deliberative process
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that's so important see that gives me a
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lot of comfort as an attorney in that in
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one of the few Arenas government should
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be working and not bias one way or the
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other especially when we talk about
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drugs and human safety and consumption
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this type of kind of indirect descent is
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a healthy exercise plus you know you
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mentioned about how boring
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administrative rulemaking is and my god
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do I agree with you in building the
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Integrity of the administrative record
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it is good to have debate because it
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will it will fend off frivolous
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challenges and it will force the science
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to work and probably even up the
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societal pressure around support so I
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don't NE I'm with you I don't
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necessarily think it's a bad thing I was
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surprised to see it but then in reading
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the actual analysis where the DEA is
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pushing back on things it seems that
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what they're really doing is setting the
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record straight that obviously it is the
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attorney general president that is
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pushing for the rulemaking they are
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doing their bidding administratively but
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not that they rejected wholesale they
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want more data and information yeah
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that's right and and what what I'd say
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Hillary is that's that is a remarkable
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change in posture for DEA I think a lot
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of people are going to read this and be
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like oh that's drug enforcement doing
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the drug enforcement thing but you know
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if if you rewind even eight years ago
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dea's position was like yeah it's
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schedule one it should be schedule one
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it's a no-brainer this is bad blah blah
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blah I mean that didn't poure out into
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the public but that was the approach DEA
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held and here they're like you said
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they're not wholesale saying like no
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cannabis is you know an awful thing
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they're just saying we don't have a lot
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of data yet or we don't have enough data
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yet for them to be comfortable in the
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decision now if we're talking about drug
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scheduling and and the debate is between
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law enforcement and scientists which if
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we boil it down that's the debate
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between FDA and DEA scientists versus
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law enforcement I'm going to take my
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cues from scientists every day and twice
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on Sunday I think they are still very
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valid perspectives in purches and that
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information needs to get out there
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because let's be honest I think a move
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to schedule three is the right decision
275
00:10:53,440 --> 00:11:00,440
I think the country is marching towards
276
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much broader drug policy reform but the
277
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scheduling process has made mistakes
278
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before I think cannabis being in
279
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,519
schedule one was a huge mistake in the
280
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:11,639
first place but we have had substances
281
00:11:08,519 --> 00:11:13,959
that move to a lower schedule and then
282
00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:15,920
information comes in and it's realized
283
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that it needs to be moved to higher
284
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control and so putting that information
285
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,399
out there for DEA I think is part of the
286
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:26,000
conversation to be like hey we might be
287
00:11:23,399 --> 00:11:29,320
make a mistake here and if we are here's
288
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:32,800
a roadmap road map back to where we need
289
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:34,320
to be now just so your listeners know I
290
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,839
don't think we're going to be moving
291
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,920
back to schedule two or schedule one for
292
00:11:36,839 --> 00:11:41,800
cannabis I can't fathom a scenario in
293
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:45,040
which that happens but this is the type
294
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of conversation that exists in drug
295
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,240
scheduling for most people interested in
296
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cannabis this is their first dipping
297
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:56,079
their toe into that area of policy the
298
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:58,040
actual drug scheduling area of policy
299
00:11:56,079 --> 00:12:00,720
but it's pretty complicated it happens
300
00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:04,519
all the time and there is a reason why
301
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:08,839
the Controlled Substances Act asks both
302
00:12:04,519 --> 00:12:11,440
HHS and doj's enforcement areas in this
303
00:12:08,839 --> 00:12:13,800
case DEA to weigh in on it because it is
304
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,920
a complex area of policy certainly I
305
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,399
think it's going to blow the mind of
306
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,399
many actors in the industry because
307
00:12:17,399 --> 00:12:21,399
they've never had to face this on
308
00:12:19,399 --> 00:12:22,959
schedule one ironically their only
309
00:12:21,399 --> 00:12:24,839
Temple at which to worship has been
310
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state law so this is going to be either
311
00:12:24,839 --> 00:12:31,000
a roote Awakening or welcome debate over
312
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,800
a top toic that just tends to generate a
313
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,480
lot of passionate takes and we can talk
314
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,920
about some of that but just to put the
315
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,519
fine point on it with the DEA wanting
316
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,880
more essentially scientific data right
317
00:12:40,519 --> 00:12:44,360
as the top pharmac cops here this is all
318
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,360
going to play out in the rul making
319
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,160
process right with hearings and
320
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,000
testimony public comment from experts I
321
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,639
assume closed door meetings public
322
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,360
meetings and it could take a while right
323
00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:56,839
before we even remotely get to a final
324
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,560
rule yeah that's right so the
325
00:12:56,839 --> 00:13:01,279
administrative procedure act lays out a
326
00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:04,000
timeline in which you know there's
327
00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:06,760
notice and comment period but there are
328
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,839
also periods that are a little more
329
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:12,440
flexible in terms of the administration
330
00:13:09,839 --> 00:13:14,839
going through comment and responding to
331
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:17,760
it and let's be honest most rul making
332
00:13:14,839 --> 00:13:19,760
associated with drug scheduling does not
333
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,399
have a lot of notice in common because
334
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,320
most people don't give a damn about it
335
00:13:21,399 --> 00:13:25,480
pharmaceutical companies will the
336
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,880
American Medical Association and other
337
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,600
similar bodies will weigh in but you're
338
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:34,360
not going to have Joe Smith from Central
339
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:36,360
Maine weighing in on Ru making around
340
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,880
the blood pressure medication and it's
341
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,240
scheduling um but here the Department of
342
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,519
Justice is going to get probably
343
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,160
hundreds of thousands of comments which
344
00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:47,680
by law under the administrative
345
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,680
procedure act they need to go through in
346
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:51,680
we and some of it will be silly stuff
347
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:54,720
but some of it will be serious and
348
00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:57,920
thoughtful and it is going to take doj
349
00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:00,959
time to go through all of this and
350
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,680
ultimately put out the final Rule and
351
00:14:00,959 --> 00:14:04,519
even then that sets off the
352
00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:07,120
Congressional review act by which
353
00:14:04,519 --> 00:14:09,360
Congress can uh reconsider uh the rulle
354
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:12,920
making it will set it will surely set
355
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,720
off litigation and so I think this is an
356
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,360
important step forward that the
357
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,160
administration is taking but whoever
358
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,880
gets elected I guess I should say
359
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,240
whoever gets reelected because someone's
360
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,199
getting reelected in in this November
361
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,720
whether it's Trump or Biden this
362
00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:29,959
probably won't be settled in that term
363
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,399
it will probably be settled in the next
364
00:14:29,959 --> 00:14:34,240
president's term and and so it's not to
365
00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:36,360
say that the rule won't take effect but
366
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,480
I think thinking about what we consider
367
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,880
settled law major litigation ending Etc
368
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,279
we're years and years away from that
369
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,199
yeah I think in kind of dilc in this
370
00:14:44,279 --> 00:14:48,839
entire process because drug scheduling
371
00:14:46,199 --> 00:14:51,440
is its own animal within administrative
372
00:14:48,839 --> 00:14:53,160
law one of these drugs that was moving
373
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,399
around on the schedules I think it took
374
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:58,519
the the DEA 14 years to basically settle
375
00:14:56,399 --> 00:15:00,000
it out and that was a drug of in my
376
00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:02,839
opinion no
377
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,240
consequence like this one is now given
378
00:15:02,839 --> 00:15:05,519
the Democratic experiments that have
379
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,120
been set up in the states and we we'll
380
00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:09,360
eventually talk about that but let's get
381
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:13,759
into one of the what I saw as maybe a
382
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:17,199
more major contention between DEA HHS
383
00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:19,639
FDA and it's regarding schedule 3 is the
384
00:15:17,199 --> 00:15:21,639
most appropriate schedule and how the
385
00:15:19,639 --> 00:15:23,040
HHS came to that conclusion and I don't
386
00:15:21,639 --> 00:15:25,199
want to get too far into the weeds
387
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,920
because it is out there but typically
388
00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:29,560
there's a five Factor test that's used
389
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,040
after we determine that something should
390
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,880
be scheduled then we determine the
391
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,800
schedule it should go on that five
392
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,079
Factor test basically determines the
393
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,720
appropriate schedule DEA and the notice
394
00:15:37,079 --> 00:15:42,920
of proposed rulemaking seems to be
395
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:45,720
getting after HHS for only using a novel
396
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,279
two-factor test basically to determine
397
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,680
which is really important the currently
398
00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:51,800
accepted medical use of cannabis which
399
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,319
HHS FDA found that there were seven
400
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,399
indications for which it would be
401
00:15:53,319 --> 00:15:58,240
medically appropriate the office of
402
00:15:55,399 --> 00:15:59,920
legal council which supplied an opinion
403
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,399
to the attorney en's office and that's
404
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,160
what they do as you know John they give
405
00:16:01,399 --> 00:16:04,519
opinions advisory opinions and they
406
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,600
basically advise the president and the
407
00:16:04,519 --> 00:16:08,360
executive agencies that the five-part
408
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,199
test that's normally used is quote
409
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:14,279
unquote impermissibly narrow and that
410
00:16:11,199 --> 00:16:15,920
the hhs2 factor test was satisfactory
411
00:16:14,279 --> 00:16:17,399
see this to me is where the
412
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,800
prohibitionists and the people that
413
00:16:17,399 --> 00:16:22,880
don't want this to happen can lock on
414
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,440
legally procedurally to say you violated
415
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,880
the law this needs to come to a
416
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:29,399
screeching halt but how do you see that
417
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,639
it was a a really interesting approach
418
00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:33,399
that was taken and so I think if you
419
00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:36,279
pull back it's kind of interesting
420
00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:38,319
because the argument is a five Factor
421
00:16:36,279 --> 00:16:40,800
test is too narrow so let's go with a
422
00:16:38,319 --> 00:16:43,560
two- Factor test which somehow seems
423
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:47,079
narrower when you start to dive into it
424
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:49,680
uh the narrowness construct is that the
425
00:16:47,079 --> 00:16:53,360
and the argument is the five Factor test
426
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:56,360
is too focused on the type of gold
427
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,440
standard research that we are used to
428
00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,600
that is double blind Placebo studies
429
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:04,679
that that type of research and so the
430
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:07,319
argument is listen we have a lot of data
431
00:17:04,679 --> 00:17:10,520
and a lot of information from the states
432
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:12,799
that have been dabbling in legalization
433
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,199
for decades now right I mean we have
434
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:17,839
we're pushing 30 years of legalization
435
00:17:15,199 --> 00:17:20,799
for medical in California we're better
436
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:24,039
than a decade now of for legalization
437
00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:26,120
for adult use I mean July 1 right is
438
00:17:24,039 --> 00:17:28,679
going to be the 10y year anniversary of
439
00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:31,679
commercial sales starting in Colorado
440
00:17:28,679 --> 00:17:34,760
and so the narrowness of being too
441
00:17:31,679 --> 00:17:38,120
restrictive in the five Factor test is
442
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,360
really a essentially arguing that
443
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:43,360
cannabis is unique and it is in so many
444
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:45,919
ways cannabis policy is unique because
445
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:49,080
when we're talking about drug scheduling
446
00:17:45,919 --> 00:17:50,679
generally we don't have state markets
447
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,360
that are operating that are already
448
00:17:50,679 --> 00:17:54,840
providing the drug that is under
449
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,520
consideration and so I think olc is
450
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,799
smart it's something I've been arguing
451
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,159
for a while I know Hillary it's
452
00:17:57,799 --> 00:18:00,919
something you've been arguing for a
453
00:17:59,159 --> 00:18:02,880
while that like we need to think about
454
00:18:00,919 --> 00:18:04,320
cannabis differently because it is
455
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,760
different and the market is different
456
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:10,039
and the information environment is
457
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:12,000
different and so moving toward a broader
458
00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:14,960
understanding and a broader perspective
459
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:18,320
of what we see as accepted medical use
460
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:21,159
risk of abuse Etc needs to take into
461
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,200
account Decades of information that we
462
00:18:21,159 --> 00:18:25,320
have um at the state level I agree with
463
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,919
you 100% I think this is going to be
464
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:30,600
something that does become litigious um
465
00:18:27,919 --> 00:18:32,880
particularly among prohibitionists I
466
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:37,120
think one of the arguments is going to
467
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:39,000
be a new uh rule a new regulation is
468
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:40,720
that the regulation is arbitrary or
469
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,760
capricious and I think one of the
470
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,480
arguments is going to be that this is an
471
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,960
arbitrary approach but I actually I
472
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:51,919
would flip that argument on its head um
473
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:55,760
and say that if olc did not provide a
474
00:18:51,919 --> 00:18:58,520
sort of backdrop or a backup for the
475
00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:01,039
transition to the two-factor analysis
476
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:04,200
that the five factor analysis actually
477
00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:06,440
becomes arbitrary because it ignores so
478
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,440
much information uh that is out there
479
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,039
and so I think prohibitionists
480
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,039
ultimately are going to have a lot of
481
00:19:10,039 --> 00:19:14,440
really lousy days in court when it comes
482
00:19:12,039 --> 00:19:16,400
to challenging schedule three status and
483
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,480
I think what is like you said this has
484
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,919
only been out for less than 24 hours as
485
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:24,440
you and I are taping this what I think
486
00:19:20,919 --> 00:19:27,960
jumps off the page to some people as
487
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,280
lunacy is actually going to be the solid
488
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,360
legal found
489
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,840
for why this scheduling decision is
490
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,520
ultimately upheld by courts of appeals
491
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,400
so and just to play a little Devil's
492
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,520
Advocate because it's worthwhile and
493
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,760
you're so articulate on this and I love
494
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,360
your takes do you think that going from
495
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,320
the five factor to two Factor even if
496
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:48,679
it's got some legal backing is
497
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,280
reflective of the social pressure you
498
00:19:48,679 --> 00:19:53,200
spoke about early on that clearly even
499
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:56,120
if it's anecdotally the states are
500
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,760
bought in there's Clear Medical effect
501
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,840
here we may not know the full extent
502
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,480
because we haven't been allowed to
503
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,640
research it but that this is a product
504
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,200
of that social pressure to treat this
505
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,679
differently in addition to maybe a new
506
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,559
legal standard that's just as adequate
507
00:20:07,679 --> 00:20:12,520
yeah I think it would be foolish to
508
00:20:09,559 --> 00:20:14,400
suggest that it is not a signal of the
509
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,400
social pressure um and political
510
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:20,559
pressure that exists and I think that is
511
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,320
you know baked into this as you read
512
00:20:20,559 --> 00:20:24,159
along and I think it's going to make
513
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:27,400
prohibitionists want to tear their hair
514
00:20:24,159 --> 00:20:30,799
out you know I'm not one who would argue
515
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:33,720
that our drug safety protocols in the
516
00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:36,120
United States should entirely shift to
517
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:39,679
this two-factor analysis but when you
518
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:41,559
have this bizarre scenario in which the
519
00:20:39,679 --> 00:20:45,559
federal government says something is
520
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:47,440
illegal and States not just illicit
521
00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:50,280
actors within States but state
522
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:54,240
governments like my own are authorizing
523
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:57,320
the activity to produce manufacture and
524
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,720
sell that substance that the federal
525
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,919
government says is illegal it creates a
526
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,159
different policy environment and yes
527
00:21:01,919 --> 00:21:06,280
there's societal pressure there but part
528
00:21:04,159 --> 00:21:09,280
of it too is just a reflection of the
529
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,880
policy realities and I think while there
530
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,640
will be arguments that this came about
531
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,520
because of social and political pressure
532
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,559
which can certainly factor into a
533
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:21,799
Court's understanding of whether the rul
534
00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:23,600
making process worked effectively and as
535
00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:27,159
it should under the administrative
536
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:31,400
procedure act I think also courts are
537
00:21:27,159 --> 00:21:33,480
just as charged to think about the
538
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,520
broader policy environment and all of
539
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,880
the information that weighs into it and
540
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,520
I'm not a lawyer I'm not a judge but for
541
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,320
me if you think about you know let's
542
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:47,120
boil it down to like a criminal trial
543
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:50,039
right if there is 99 pieces of evidence
544
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:53,080
that point to someone being guilty and
545
00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:55,440
you go in to a judge and you say here's
546
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,960
one piece of evidence that suggests that
547
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,880
this person is guilty a judge might say
548
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,000
like that's not a lot there might be
549
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,559
other issues here so why not bring all
550
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,120
99 pieces of evidence in and display it
551
00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:08,679
to a court and a criminal trial that's
552
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:10,720
what a prosecutor is going to do in a a
553
00:22:08,679 --> 00:22:12,720
defense attorney in a criminal trial is
554
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,880
going to bring all of the exculpatory
555
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,640
evidence that they can bring to bear so
556
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,440
why not bring all of this information
557
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,720
out and I think when it eventually gets
558
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:26,080
challenged in federal courts courts are
559
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:27,720
going to be pleased that all of the
560
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,600
information that could be bought brought
561
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,520
to bear was brought to bear in this
562
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,799
conversation well and certainly public
563
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,480
policy is always relevant it may not be
564
00:22:33,799 --> 00:22:38,159
the most primary factor at least in
565
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,080
civil litigation but it's always a
566
00:22:38,159 --> 00:22:41,520
consideration right our courts acting in
567
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,840
the interest the best interest of the
568
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,520
public based on the body of law and the
569
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,440
real facts in front of them obviously
570
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,640
it's a very fluid situation especially
571
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,919
this one now let's move on and this will
572
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,480
probably be the last thing I asked you
573
00:22:50,919 --> 00:22:54,440
about the notice of proposed R making
574
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,080
itself people were banging the drum in
575
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,520
both camps about International drug
576
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:01,120
treaties it's something that we can't
577
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,480
skirt it's a reality they're complicated
578
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:05,559
and they're Antiquated olc the office of
579
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,279
legal council opinion essentially came
580
00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:09,880
to the conclusion that none of these
581
00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:11,799
treaties none of them actually require
582
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:15,080
cannabis to be placed in schedule one or
583
00:23:11,799 --> 00:23:18,559
two but then it seems that the DEA
584
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,200
concludes that we can do this move we
585
00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:22,000
have the authority to do it the move
586
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,400
itself will not violate the treaties we
587
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,520
can continue to honor our treaties so
588
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,279
long as we ensure that schedule three
589
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,760
controls remain in place if I'm getting
590
00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:34,000
that wrong let me know but I glommed on
591
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,600
to that because then I look at the state
592
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,039
experiments and this will be the next
593
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,679
thing we talk about and probably the
594
00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:40,400
thing that's on everybody's mind if they
595
00:23:38,679 --> 00:23:42,240
have a licensed cannabis business in one
596
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,360
of these states and state Regulators is
597
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,760
that how you read that from the DEA
598
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:48,640
about splitting the baby on compliance
599
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:52,080
with drug treaties yeah that's how I
600
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,960
read it and I will say the caveat here
601
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:57,840
is this is the same Federal agency that
602
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,679
for years said medical cannabis couldn't
603
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,039
be allowed because of our treaty
604
00:23:59,679 --> 00:24:04,440
obligations when in reality the single
605
00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:07,440
convention and its successor treaties
606
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:10,240
have specific carats for the medical use
607
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,279
of scheduled substances and so I
608
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,880
typically take with a grain of salt what
609
00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:15,640
the DEA says about our treaty
610
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,200
obligations when it comes to Controlled
611
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:21,440
Substances but my reading of what they
612
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,279
said here is your reading of it and I
613
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,840
actually think in this case the right it
614
00:24:23,279 --> 00:24:29,080
is not a violation of our treaty
615
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:31,960
obligations so long as there are
616
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,320
controls Federal controls around
617
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,240
production and distribution of that
618
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:39,679
substance now it does fly in the face of
619
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,080
what state experiments are which are
620
00:24:39,679 --> 00:24:43,919
absolutely without a doubt no questions
621
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,440
asked violations of our treaty
622
00:24:43,919 --> 00:24:50,080
obligations but Canada and Uruguay have
623
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:53,080
legalized and now Germany has legalized
624
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:55,600
adult use recreational Cannabis explicit
625
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,679
violations of their treaty obligations
626
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,320
and nothing has happened to them in the
627
00:24:57,679 --> 00:25:02,600
international community and so it is the
628
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:06,559
obligation of DEA and the office of
629
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:09,520
legal counsel to bring up issues around
630
00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:12,240
our treaty obligations but the United
631
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,120
States typically doesn't let treaty
632
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,360
obligations get in the way of a policy
633
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:19,880
it wants to ultimately Chase and I don't
634
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:22,200
think it's going to have an effect here
635
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,039
and I think being the first person to
636
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,360
the party of breaking a treaty
637
00:25:24,039 --> 00:25:27,520
obligation is always a little
638
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:29,919
uncomfortable and what I always say is
639
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:34,000
you know Canada a big booming you know
640
00:25:29,919 --> 00:25:37,080
G7 economy and so it's easy to ignore
641
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,960
them violating treaty obligations but
642
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,360
nothing happened to Uruguay and if if
643
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,520
the International Community didn't
644
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:44,120
penalize Uruguay for it and I say that
645
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,120
as I love Uruguay it's a beautiful
646
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:48,240
country nothing against that country but
647
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:50,200
Uruguay is not the United States uguay
648
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,520
is not Canada and if Uruguay can get
649
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,760
away with it even if ultimately we are
650
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,520
violating our treaty obligations I don't
651
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,840
think a lot of Americans and I don't
652
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,399
think a lot of people in the Biden
653
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,559
administ are going to lose a lot of
654
00:25:59,399 --> 00:26:04,600
sleep over that understood Fair take and
655
00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:06,279
now let's talk about this apparent
656
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,960
elephant in the room and when you and I
657
00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:09,720
spoke about this last we were on a panel
658
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,679
together in Michigan talking again to a
659
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,440
bunch of lawyers and Suits speculating
660
00:26:11,679 --> 00:26:16,760
what a schedule 3 world would look like
661
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,279
there is a lot of talk some alarmists
662
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,200
some conspiratorial some totally
663
00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:23,240
dismissive about what schedule 3 means
664
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,480
for these existing state legal markets
665
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:28,440
like the one you're in in Maine and is
666
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,840
this the dea's second bite at the Apple
667
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,279
enforcement because under schedule one
668
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,440
even though they did nothing they were
669
00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:36,760
basically Bound by the coal memo which
670
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,360
has now been vaporized and US attorney
671
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,200
simply wouldn't prosecute the cases
672
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:42,399
there was no interest taxpayer dollars
673
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,919
support or resources to pursue something
674
00:26:42,399 --> 00:26:47,120
like that why does this time at least to
675
00:26:44,919 --> 00:26:48,919
me it feels different and I it might
676
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:51,640
feel different because we have these
677
00:26:48,919 --> 00:26:53,039
controlled schedule 3 drugs in existence
678
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,240
that to your point they didn't have
679
00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:57,240
existing over the counter State markets
680
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,480
beforehand so to me it feels
681
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,679
substantively legally and enforcement
682
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,480
wise like a paradoxical Universe where
683
00:27:02,679 --> 00:27:06,600
how could you treat One schedule three
684
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,520
substance differently carve it out even
685
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,080
if it's by Omission right they just lay
686
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,240
down they never say anything about it
687
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,320
when you've got these others like
688
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,279
testosterone ketamine Etc you've heard
689
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,760
all of it that you can only get through
690
00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:20,399
the doctor's office tell me why I should
691
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,679
not be concerned about that yeah so it
692
00:27:20,399 --> 00:27:25,720
doesn't feel different to me you know my
693
00:27:22,679 --> 00:27:27,679
take has been and will continue to be it
694
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,919
is what I've told the administration
695
00:27:27,679 --> 00:27:32,640
here in main it's what I've told every
696
00:27:29,919 --> 00:27:35,320
lie here in Maine who has asked me this
697
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,640
does not change our Market in Maine it
698
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,679
doesn't change things for our operators
699
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,480
in Maine except potentially changing
700
00:27:39,679 --> 00:27:45,600
their tax obligations to the IRS my take
701
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,760
has been if DEA wanted to do something
702
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,840
about cannabis they would have done it
703
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,279
when it was in schedule one when it was
704
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:56,000
deemed as a worst quote unquote worse
705
00:27:53,279 --> 00:27:58,919
drug a more harmful drug a scarier drug
706
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,840
its movement to schedule three doesn't
707
00:27:58,919 --> 00:28:03,720
change their enforcement Authority at
708
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,799
all they have just as much Authority
709
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,240
against the programs that I um
710
00:28:05,799 --> 00:28:10,559
administer in Maine and my colleagues do
711
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,960
across the country um they have just as
712
00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:15,320
much enforcement Authority for cannabis
713
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,919
schedule one as they do for cannabis at
714
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:20,960
schedule three it is going to be damn
715
00:28:17,919 --> 00:28:23,000
near impossible at this point for uh the
716
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,799
DEA to put the toothpaste back in the
717
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,440
tube they you know they tried their
718
00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:29,840
damnest in the mid 90s the mid to late
719
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,880
990s and early 2000s to do this in the
720
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,760
early medical legalizing States
721
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:37,200
California Colorado places like that and
722
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,440
that didn't work I don't see the
723
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,000
political interest from the Biden
724
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,559
Administration there certainly wasn't
725
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,120
the political interest in the Trump
726
00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:47,399
Administration actually to go out and
727
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,600
start enforcing against State programs I
728
00:28:47,399 --> 00:28:51,799
mean the way I look at it is you know
729
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,559
with Jeff sessions as attorney general
730
00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:57,480
lighting the Cole memo on fire issuing
731
00:28:54,559 --> 00:29:01,039
what I would call the sessions memo as a
732
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:03,440
result didn't result in National
733
00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:05,240
enforcement against State regulated
734
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,399
programs I don't think the move to
735
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:11,320
schedule 3 is going to do it and also
736
00:29:08,399 --> 00:29:14,360
like you have a president who has spoken
737
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,360
supportively of State programs he has
738
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,440
had an Administration and an attorney
739
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,760
general and US attorneys across the
740
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:24,279
country who have not enforced against
741
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,440
these State programs initiating a
742
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:29,240
rescheduling petition that clearly
743
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:33,080
politics factored into why on Earth
744
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,679
would he then once rescheduling happens
745
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,760
go call the Attorney General into the
746
00:29:34,679 --> 00:29:38,960
Oval Office and be like okay let's nuke
747
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,159
them now like I just don't see that
748
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,039
scenario playing out like I understand
749
00:29:41,159 --> 00:29:44,960
the concern that is out there there's a
750
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:47,880
lot of misinformation out there that
751
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,480
like oh now FDA has Authority FDA has
752
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,640
always had authority over cannabis
753
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,200
they've sent letters out to businesses
754
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,559
that have said you're making medical
755
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,000
claims for cannabis that are
756
00:29:54,559 --> 00:30:00,480
inappropriate this doesn't change the
757
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,919
enforcement environment for DEA or FDA I
758
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,960
think we're still going to have a non-
759
00:30:01,919 --> 00:30:06,480
enforcement Doctrine under President
760
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,840
Biden if president Trump is reelected in
761
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,559
November I think that will continue I
762
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:14,679
think the writing is on the wall about
763
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:17,799
where the American public is cannabis
764
00:30:14,679 --> 00:30:20,039
policy I think if you talk to the
765
00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:22,679
strongest prohibitionists in the country
766
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:25,200
off the Record and ask them you know
767
00:30:22,679 --> 00:30:28,559
would you rather drug enforcement money
768
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,399
be used against cannabis or against
769
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:32,399
the answer is always fentol and we can't
770
00:30:30,399 --> 00:30:34,320
we don't even have the resources to deal
771
00:30:32,399 --> 00:30:36,760
with our fentol problem in the United
772
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,720
States why divert even a penny of it
773
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,799
towards something else that the vast
774
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,440
majority of Americans see as not a
775
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:45,679
harmful substance or not as harmful of a
776
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,799
substance and so if there's not going to
777
00:30:45,679 --> 00:30:50,799
be this kind of conspiratorial mass
778
00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:53,600
shutdown I've never envisioned that do
779
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:55,799
you think the feds Force DEA
780
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,279
registration and all of the hoopla that
781
00:30:55,799 --> 00:30:59,760
comes with making schedule 3 controled
782
00:30:58,279 --> 00:31:02,639
substances or is that kind of in the
783
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:05,240
same boat where we won't see a pan shut
784
00:31:02,639 --> 00:31:07,080
down and we also won't see these State
785
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,320
licensed companies impacted by Health
786
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:12,399
Care laws and Drug development rules Etc
787
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,559
and they really are kind of in their own
788
00:31:12,399 --> 00:31:17,679
realm here legally and regulatorily
789
00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:20,679
speaking Yeah I don't see the push for
790
00:31:17,679 --> 00:31:22,480
requiring DEA registration again they
791
00:31:20,679 --> 00:31:24,399
could have required DEA registration
792
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,880
under schedule one right and and they
793
00:31:24,399 --> 00:31:29,840
didn't choose to do that you know I was
794
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,720
on a panel years back and I think it was
795
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,360
in Oakland and I someone on the panel
796
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,080
hell it might have been you Hillary made
797
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:40,320
sort of a brilliant point which was you
798
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:43,519
know their vision for what cannabis
799
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:45,880
policy would be in a rescheduled world
800
00:31:43,519 --> 00:31:48,559
is kind of like the difference between a
801
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:51,039
chiropractor and a massage therapist
802
00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:53,559
there are similar techniques that both
803
00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:57,519
of them use but one of them is a
804
00:31:53,559 --> 00:31:59,559
physician and one of them is not and
805
00:31:57,519 --> 00:32:01,080
they're treated very differently they're
806
00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:02,720
regulated very differently they're
807
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,600
treated very differently by insurance
808
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:09,480
companies for the most part uh the idea
809
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:13,120
that you can't have sort of peer
810
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,960
behaviors or peer activities or peer
811
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,639
medicines that are treated very
812
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:21,279
differently just doesn't necessarily
813
00:32:17,639 --> 00:32:23,799
hold up and I I say that um recognizing
814
00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:27,120
that we tend not to have those types of
815
00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:29,279
peer tracks for substances but the
816
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,360
chiropractor versus massage therapist
817
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:33,080
thing made sense and if there are any
818
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,679
chiropractors listening I'm sure they're
819
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,559
going to be pissed that I'm comparing
820
00:32:34,679 --> 00:32:38,720
them to massage therapist but but
821
00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:41,200
ultimately you know you can look at
822
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:44,240
cannabis very similarly right you can go
823
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,880
to a medical retail store here in main a
824
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,159
medical cannabis retail store here in
825
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,240
Maine and you can with a card you can
826
00:32:48,159 --> 00:32:52,120
get cannabis and the person behind the
827
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:55,320
counter is not supposed to say to you
828
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,559
like oh this cures you know Ms or
829
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,240
they're not supposed to say that I'm
830
00:32:56,559 --> 00:33:01,039
sure some of them do but you're sort of
831
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,120
just flying by the seat of your pants
832
00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:04,639
with it you're like I hope this works I
833
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,639
I'll be honest I'm I'm not a medical
834
00:33:04,639 --> 00:33:08,600
cannabis patient here in main because
835
00:33:06,639 --> 00:33:10,720
the legislature won't allow us to test
836
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,240
our medical cannabis for adulterant so I
837
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:16,240
don't use it here but I have been a
838
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:20,440
medical cannabis patient elsewhere and
839
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:22,360
it is very much a trial by error process
840
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,880
I don't have that same trial by error
841
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,440
process typically if I go to CVS for a
842
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,880
pharmaceutical and so I think
843
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,880
understanding cannabis to have two
844
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,639
different tracks we are going to have a
845
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,399
pharmaceutical version of cannabis we
846
00:33:32,639 --> 00:33:37,080
already do with epids and Marinol and
847
00:33:35,399 --> 00:33:39,799
things like that and we might have more
848
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:42,720
in the future that has been tested and
849
00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:43,960
you can go in and have pretty good
850
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,720
confidence that this is going to work
851
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,519
for the thing it's prescribed for or you
852
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,240
can go to The Dispensary or the retail
853
00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:52,039
store and try until you find something
854
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,200
that works and and not to belabor the
855
00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:55,760
point but you know one of the
856
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,799
interesting things that happened for me
857
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,519
a few years back was I got asked to
858
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:02,600
participate in a drug trial a cannabis
859
00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:04,200
drug trial I have what's called an
860
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,399
essential tremor so if you've ever been
861
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,320
around me you'll see I have a little bit
862
00:34:05,399 --> 00:34:08,720
of a hand Tremor it's benign it's not
863
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,639
like it's Parkinson's disease or
864
00:34:08,720 --> 00:34:12,560
something like that it's benign but it's
865
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:15,119
noticeable and there are cannabis
866
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,919
formulations that can be used to treat
867
00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:19,639
it I think it was like UCSD or UCLA was
868
00:34:17,919 --> 00:34:22,800
running a drug trial about it I declined
869
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:24,839
the drug I declined to participate I use
870
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,679
cannabis for a different medical
871
00:34:24,839 --> 00:34:29,040
condition and typically when I use
872
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:31,520
cannabis it makes my hand Tremor
873
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,480
extraordinarily worse I'm sure there's a
874
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,679
formulation that can help treat it but
875
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,760
it sort of goes to show that like some
876
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:40,079
people might use cannabis for their hand
877
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,280
Tremor if I use cannabis for something
878
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:43,520
different it amplifies my hand Tremor
879
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,879
and I think that's the sort of thing
880
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,359
like I've gotten a bad massage before
881
00:34:45,879 --> 00:34:49,119
gotten a really lousy massage I've
882
00:34:47,359 --> 00:34:50,839
gotten off the massage table and my back
883
00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:52,240
is killing that's some people's
884
00:34:50,839 --> 00:34:54,000
experience with Canabis and I think
885
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:56,639
we're going to have that sort of dual
886
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,000
track process without DEA stepping in
887
00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:00,359
well you've heard it here folks that we
888
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,880
might see bifurcation between let's say
889
00:35:00,359 --> 00:35:04,000
a Choose Your Own Adventure health and
890
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,520
wellness industry which does exist with
891
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,560
Botanicals dietary supplements you name
892
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,960
it right where fire beware sounds strong
893
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,480
but you're kind of on your own with
894
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,119
education and you have autonomy over
895
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,720
your body and then you've got the firm
896
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:19,040
grade where you're seeing a treading
897
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:21,320
physician for on label indications maybe
898
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,119
even more potent that world I can get
899
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,520
behind because that to me my lawyer
900
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:27,880
brain makes sense other than some
901
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,800
arbitrariness where we get State Market
902
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,119
but no guidance on how they're
903
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,160
inevitably going to be treated that's
904
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:33,960
what I think what's making me
905
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,359
uncomfortable now last question before I
906
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,920
let you go and it's a tough one but a
907
00:35:36,359 --> 00:35:41,880
fun one are we getting a rule in 60 days
908
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,280
a rule in 60 days uh no I mean the
909
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,599
notice and comment period is going to
910
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,240
close in 60 days but like I do rle
911
00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:51,079
making here in Maine for I've only been
912
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:53,480
in the job for 14 15 months now and
913
00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:56,240
we've done a few rounds of rule making
914
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,400
and going through the the notice and
915
00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:01,079
comment period in a state with 1.3
916
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,640
million people mind you going through
917
00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:04,440
after the notice and comment period
918
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,480
through all of the comments we are
919
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,560
legally obligated to do that and we make
920
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,960
statements in response to the notice and
921
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,720
comment period that are exactly that
922
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:17,920
responsive to the comments that we
923
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:20,240
receive and you know we'll get 30 40 50
924
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,040
100 comments on a rule and it takes our
925
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:24,640
office a lot of time to go through all
926
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,920
of that like I said I expect hundreds of
927
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,359
thousands of comments on this proposed
928
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,160
Ru making and now granted you know the
929
00:36:29,359 --> 00:36:32,920
Department of Justice has a hell of a
930
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,000
lot more people than the office of
931
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,839
cannabis policy in Maine does to work on
932
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:41,440
this stuff that thoughtful process is
933
00:36:37,839 --> 00:36:43,400
not just important but it is required
934
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:47,000
under the administrative procedure act
935
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:49,040
and a violation or a deviation from
936
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:53,040
thoughtful responsiveness to those
937
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:54,839
comments will create a legal situation
938
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,839
in which the rule can be thrown out by
939
00:36:54,839 --> 00:36:58,000
the courts and so yeah I don't think
940
00:36:56,839 --> 00:37:00,720
we're going to get a we're going to get
941
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,560
a rule in 60 days I think the president
942
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:05,720
would like the rule to be out before the
943
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,720
election but in reality for most
944
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:10,079
Americans the rules already happen this
945
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:12,359
is already policy the do has been closed
946
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:14,000
in fact the announcement the leak and
947
00:37:12,359 --> 00:37:16,240
then the announcement a couple of weeks
948
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,839
ago was the end of the conversation for
949
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:19,400
most Americans the president's going to
950
00:37:17,839 --> 00:37:21,000
get the political benefits if any that
951
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,760
he's going to get out of it most
952
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,640
Americans most Americans aren't going to
953
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,240
see a change anyways around schedule
954
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,319
three the business owners might with
955
00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:32,920
some tax relief but ultimately now it's
956
00:37:29,319 --> 00:37:35,520
just the boring tody parts of
957
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,800
administrative law that get to be
958
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,839
bearing out and nerds like you and me
959
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,480
Hillary and others are going to be
960
00:37:39,839 --> 00:37:44,160
hanging on every word and every release
961
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,400
but for most Americans this this
962
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:49,400
conversation has ended all right dear
963
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:51,119
listener uh you've heard it again here
964
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,920
don't buy into the internet we will not
965
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:55,920
see a rule in 60 days I had to ask that
966
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,319
question to clear the air now we get to
967
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,160
see how the sausages SA is made for
968
00:37:58,319 --> 00:38:02,119
probably months and years to come so
969
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,800
John thank you so much for your time and
970
00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:05,680
attention it really has been very
971
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,079
Illuminating I sincerely hope at some
972
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,800
point you get to publish more literature
973
00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:10,599
on this because we'd all benefit from
974
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,200
that thanks again thank you Hillary it's
975
00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:15,880
been a bless and that concludes today's
976
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:21,040
episode of the Cannabis law Now podcast
977
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:21,040
until next time stayer stay alive